Toyota cars spy on us

[Mighty Mouse]

https://auslink.info/video/toyospy.mp4

I suppose it's the same here in Oz

[Keithr0]

Post by Mighty Mouse
https://auslink.info/video/toyospy.mp4
I suppose it's the same here in Oz

It is

https://www.choice.com.au/about-us/media/media-releases/2024/feb/toyota-investigation

https://www.choice.com.au/consumers-and-data/data-collection-and-use/who-has-your-data/articles/toyota-connected-cars

Note the phrase " Things like the car's Bluetooth and speaker systems
may not work when the Connected Services system is removed.". There is
no reason for that.

[Daryl]

Post by Keithr0

Post by Mighty Mouse
https://auslink.info/video/toyospy.mp4
I suppose it's the same here in Oz

It is
https://www.choice.com.au/about-us/media/media-releases/2024/feb/toyota-investigation
https://www.choice.com.au/consumers-and-data/data-collection-and-use/who-has-your-data/articles/toyota-connected-cars
Note the phrase " Things like the car's Bluetooth and speaker systems
may not work when the Connected Services system is removed.". There is
no reason for that.

Not just Toyota, many new cars connect to the internet via WiFi or
Bluetooth.
Son bought a new Ford Ranger in 2016, when he drove into his driveway at
home the car connected to his home WiFi and installed updates etc, that
was 8 yrs ago so I wouldn't be surprised if newer models do a lot more.
Just about every make and model has some sort of internet connection,
the difference might be what each manufacturer chooses to do with the
data they collect.

[Noddy]

Post by Daryl

Post by Keithr0

Post by Mighty Mouse
https://auslink.info/video/toyospy.mp4
I suppose it's the same here in Oz

It is
https://www.choice.com.au/about-us/media/media-releases/2024/feb/toyota-investigation
https://www.choice.com.au/consumers-and-data/data-collection-and-use/who-has-your-data/articles/toyota-connected-cars
Note the phrase " Things like the car's Bluetooth and speaker systems
may not work when the Connected Services system is removed.". There is
no reason for that.

Not just Toyota, many new cars connect to the internet via WiFi or
Bluetooth.

Yep. My Connects via Wifi. The Sorento has it's own built in sim and
connects wherever it goes as it sees fit.

Post by Daryl
Son bought a new Ford Ranger in 2016, when he drove into his driveway at
home the car connected to his home WiFi and installed updates etc, that
was 8 yrs ago so I wouldn't be surprised if newer models do a lot more.

Pretty much the same, although the new one adds features as they become
available.

Post by Daryl
Just about every make and model has some sort of internet connection,
the difference might be what each manufacturer chooses to do with the
data they collect.

At the end of the day who cares? We have home internet, smart phones,
yada yada yada. There is nothing people don't already know about you,
but I love the way the articles word their comments. "Potentially"
dangerous isn't the same as dangerous :)

[Xeno]

Post by Noddy

Post by Daryl

Post by Keithr0

Post by Mighty Mouse
https://auslink.info/video/toyospy.mp4
I suppose it's the same here in Oz

It is
https://www.choice.com.au/about-us/media/media-releases/2024/feb/toyota-investigation
https://www.choice.com.au/consumers-and-data/data-collection-and-use/who-has-your-data/articles/toyota-connected-cars
Note the phrase " Things like the car's Bluetooth and speaker systems
may not work when the Connected Services system is removed.". There
is no reason for that.

Not just Toyota, many new cars connect to the internet via WiFi or
Bluetooth.

Yep. My Connects via Wifi. The Sorento has it's own built in sim and
connects wherever it goes as it sees fit.

Post by Daryl
Son bought a new Ford Ranger in 2016, when he drove into his driveway
at home the car connected to his home WiFi and installed updates etc,
that was 8 yrs ago so I wouldn't be surprised if newer models do a lot
more.

Pretty much the same, although the new one adds features as they become
available.

Post by Daryl
Just about every make and model has some sort of internet connection,
the difference might be what each manufacturer chooses to do with the
data they collect.

At the end of the day who cares? We have home internet, smart phones,
yada yada yada. There is nothing people don't already know about you,
but I love the way the articles word their comments. "Potentially"
dangerous isn't the same as dangerous :)

Potentially dangerous simply means that it isn't dangerous if you have a
clue. Well, that's you screwed right there.

[Mighty Mouse]

Post by Xeno

Post by Noddy

Post by Daryl

Post by Keithr0

Post by Mighty Mouse
https://auslink.info/video/toyospy.mp4
I suppose it's the same here in Oz

It is
https://www.choice.com.au/about-us/media/media-releases/2024/feb/toyota-investigation
https://www.choice.com.au/consumers-and-data/data-collection-and-use/who-has-your-data/articles/toyota-connected-cars
Note the phrase " Things like the car's Bluetooth and speaker
systems may not work when the Connected Services system is
removed.". There is no reason for that.

Not just Toyota, many new cars connect to the internet via WiFi or
Bluetooth.

Yep. My Connects via Wifi. The Sorento has it's own built in sim and
connects wherever it goes as it sees fit.

Post by Daryl
Son bought a new Ford Ranger in 2016, when he drove into his
driveway at home the car connected to his home WiFi and installed
updates etc, that was 8 yrs ago so I wouldn't be surprised if newer
models do a lot more.

Pretty much the same, although the new one adds features as they
become available.

Post by Daryl
Just about every make and model has some sort of internet
connection, the difference might be what each manufacturer chooses
to do with the data they collect.

At the end of the day who cares? We have home internet, smart phones,
yada yada yada. There is nothing people don't already know about you,
but I love the way the articles word their comments. "Potentially"
dangerous isn't the same as dangerous :)

Potentially dangerous simply means that it isn't dangerous if you have
a clue. Well, that's you screwed right there.

LOL

[Daryl]

Post by Noddy

Post by Daryl

Post by Keithr0

Post by Mighty Mouse
https://auslink.info/video/toyospy.mp4
I suppose it's the same here in Oz

It is
https://www.choice.com.au/about-us/media/media-releases/2024/feb/toyota-investigation
https://www.choice.com.au/consumers-and-data/data-collection-and-use/who-has-your-data/articles/toyota-connected-cars
Note the phrase " Things like the car's Bluetooth and speaker systems
may not work when the Connected Services system is removed.". There
is no reason for that.

Not just Toyota, many new cars connect to the internet via WiFi or
Bluetooth.

Yep. My Connects via Wifi. The Sorento has it's own built in sim and
connects wherever it goes as it sees fit.

Post by Daryl
Son bought a new Ford Ranger in 2016, when he drove into his driveway
at home the car connected to his home WiFi and installed updates etc,
that was 8 yrs ago so I wouldn't be surprised if newer models do a lot
more.

Pretty much the same, although the new one adds features as they become
available.

Post by Daryl
Just about every make and model has some sort of internet connection,
the difference might be what each manufacturer chooses to do with the
data they collect.

At the end of the day who cares? We have home internet, smart phones,
yada yada yada. There is nothing people don't already know about you,
but I love the way the articles word their comments. "Potentially"
dangerous isn't the same as dangerous :)

True, most of us have a smart phone that can track where ever we go and
even sometimes listen to conversations when we think the phone isn't active.
Numerous times I've had a conversation with someone about some topic and
next time I look at my phone an ad relating to what we were discussing
appears.
With phones its possible to turn off some of the tracking but not all so
the its a bit like worrying about closing the gate after the horse has
already bolted.
I don't like it as much as anyone else but is there anything any of us
can do about it?

[Noddy]

Post by Daryl

Post by Noddy
At the end of the day who cares? We have home internet, smart phones,
yada yada yada. There is nothing people don't already know about you,
but I love the way the articles word their comments. "Potentially"
dangerous isn't the same as dangerous :)

True, most of us have a smart phone that can track where ever we go and
even sometimes listen to conversations when we think the phone isn't active.
Numerous times I've had a conversation with someone about some topic and
next time I look at my phone an ad relating to what we were discussing
appears.
With phones its possible to turn off some of the tracking but not all so
the its a bit like worrying about closing the gate after the horse has
already bolted.
I don't like it as much as anyone else but is there anything any of us
can do about it?

You can turn a lot of it off, but at the end of the day what are they
going to learn about you? Your driving habits? Your shopping habits? big
deal. They know plenty about you as it is. The little extra your car is
going to reveal is going to make zero difference.

[Xeno]

Post by Noddy

Post by Daryl

Post by Noddy
At the end of the day who cares? We have home internet, smart phones,
yada yada yada. There is nothing people don't already know about you,
but I love the way the articles word their comments. "Potentially"
dangerous isn't the same as dangerous :)

True, most of us have a smart phone that can track where ever we go
and even sometimes listen to conversations when we think the phone
isn't active.
Numerous times I've had a conversation with someone about some topic
and next time I look at my phone an ad relating to what we were
discussing appears.
With phones its possible to turn off some of the tracking but not all
so the its a bit like worrying about closing the gate after the horse
has already bolted.
I don't like it as much as anyone else but is there anything any of us
can do about it?

You can turn a lot of it off, but at the end of the day what are they
going to learn about you? Your driving habits? Your shopping habits? big
deal. They know plenty about you as it is. The little extra your car is
going to reveal is going to make zero difference.

Cars can be remotely disabled now. What happens if you are a government
dissenter??? Hint: It's all happening in *some* countries now. Want to
see it happen here, easy, just do nothing when you see the first warning
signs.

[Daryl]

Post by Noddy

Post by Daryl

Post by Noddy
At the end of the day who cares? We have home internet, smart phones,
yada yada yada. There is nothing people don't already know about you,
but I love the way the articles word their comments. "Potentially"
dangerous isn't the same as dangerous :)

True, most of us have a smart phone that can track where ever we go
and even sometimes listen to conversations when we think the phone
isn't active.
Numerous times I've had a conversation with someone about some topic
and next time I look at my phone an ad relating to what we were
discussing appears.
With phones its possible to turn off some of the tracking but not all
so the its a bit like worrying about closing the gate after the horse
has already bolted.
I don't like it as much as anyone else but is there anything any of us
can do about it?

You can turn a lot of it off, but at the end of the day what are they
going to learn about you? Your driving habits? Your shopping habits? big
deal. They know plenty about you as it is. The little extra your car is
going to reveal is going to make zero difference.

They can even track your spending habits through your credit/debit card
use so as you say they already have a huge amount of data on everyone, a
bit more won't make a big difference.

[Noddy]

Post by Daryl

Post by Noddy
You can turn a lot of it off, but at the end of the day what are they
going to learn about you? Your driving habits? Your shopping habits?
big deal. They know plenty about you as it is. The little extra your
car is going to reveal is going to make zero difference.

They can even track your spending habits through your credit/debit card
use so as you say they already have a huge amount of data on everyone, a
bit more won't make a big difference.

I don't think it would make *any* difference. Not from a security or
privacy perspective. On the other hand, the convenience advantages are
enormous.

For example both my Ranger and Sorento, and I imagine plenty of other
current vehicles as well, have accident detection systems that in the
event of an accident that is of sufficient force to set off an airbag,
both cars will "call for help". They'll shut off the engines, unlock the
doors and turn on the hazzard lights, but they'll also alert the
authorities that an accident has occurred giving all the relevant
details such as location and time, and call a pre-determined "next of
kin" number and inform them as well.

A useful feature, but it's particularly useful if you happen to be in a
one car accident on a country road where you may be unconscious and no
one else is around.

[Xeno]

Post by Noddy

Post by Daryl

Post by Noddy
You can turn a lot of it off, but at the end of the day what are they
going to learn about you? Your driving habits? Your shopping habits?
big deal. They know plenty about you as it is. The little extra your
car is going to reveal is going to make zero difference.

They can even track your spending habits through your credit/debit
card use so as you say they already have a huge amount of data on
everyone, a bit more won't make a big difference.

I don't think it would make *any* difference. Not from a security or
privacy perspective. On the other hand, the convenience advantages are
enormous.
For example both my Ranger and Sorento, and I imagine plenty of other
current vehicles as well, have accident detection systems that in the
event of an accident that is of sufficient force to set off an airbag,
both cars will "call for help". They'll shut off the engines, unlock the
doors and turn on the hazzard lights, but they'll also alert the
authorities that an accident has occurred giving all the relevant
details such as location and time, and call a pre-determined "next of
kin" number and inform them as well.
A useful feature, but it's particularly useful if you happen to be in a
one car accident on a country road where you may be unconscious and no
one else is around.

Useful features are useful until they become misused.

I'll give you just one potential example. You get involved in a road
rage incident and your car is rammed - and the engine gets shut off, the
doors are unlocked and the road rager goes on the warpath. It happens!

[Xeno]

Post by Daryl

Post by Noddy

Post by Daryl

Post by Noddy
At the end of the day who cares? We have home internet, smart
phones, yada yada yada. There is nothing people don't already know
about you, but I love the way the articles word their comments.
"Potentially" dangerous isn't the same as dangerous :)

True, most of us have a smart phone that can track where ever we go
and even sometimes listen to conversations when we think the phone
isn't active.
Numerous times I've had a conversation with someone about some topic
and next time I look at my phone an ad relating to what we were
discussing appears.
With phones its possible to turn off some of the tracking but not all
so the its a bit like worrying about closing the gate after the horse
has already bolted.
I don't like it as much as anyone else but is there anything any of
us can do about it?

You can turn a lot of it off, but at the end of the day what are they
going to learn about you? Your driving habits? Your shopping habits?
big deal. They know plenty about you as it is. The little extra your
car is going to reveal is going to make zero difference.

They can even track your spending habits through your credit/debit card
use so as you say they already have a huge amount of data on everyone, a
bit more won't make a big difference.

That's how people lose their rights, slow and barely noticeable erosion
over a long period of time.

[Xeno]

Post by Daryl

Post by Noddy

Post by Daryl

Post by Keithr0

Post by Mighty Mouse
https://auslink.info/video/toyospy.mp4
I suppose it's the same here in Oz

It is
https://www.choice.com.au/about-us/media/media-releases/2024/feb/toyota-investigation
https://www.choice.com.au/consumers-and-data/data-collection-and-use/who-has-your-data/articles/toyota-connected-cars
Note the phrase " Things like the car's Bluetooth and speaker
systems may not work when the Connected Services system is
removed.". There is no reason for that.

Not just Toyota, many new cars connect to the internet via WiFi or
Bluetooth.

Yep. My Connects via Wifi. The Sorento has it's own built in sim and
connects wherever it goes as it sees fit.

Post by Daryl
Son bought a new Ford Ranger in 2016, when he drove into his driveway
at home the car connected to his home WiFi and installed updates etc,
that was 8 yrs ago so I wouldn't be surprised if newer models do a
lot more.

Pretty much the same, although the new one adds features as they
become available.

Post by Daryl
Just about every make and model has some sort of internet connection,
the difference might be what each manufacturer chooses to do with the
data they collect.

At the end of the day who cares? We have home internet, smart phones,
yada yada yada. There is nothing people don't already know about you,
but I love the way the articles word their comments. "Potentially"
dangerous isn't the same as dangerous :)

True, most of us have a smart phone that can track where ever we go and
even sometimes listen to conversations when we think the phone isn't active.
Numerous times I've had a conversation with someone about some topic and
next time I look at my phone an ad relating to what we were discussing
appears.

Google does that! LOL

Post by Daryl
With phones its possible to turn off some of the tracking but not all so
the its a bit like worrying about closing the gate after the horse has
already bolted.
I don't like it as much as anyone else but is there anything any of us
can do about it?

Yes, but it requires you to be smarter in the way you operate. Hmm
Ok, don't bother, for you it'll be a waste of time.

[Mighty Mouse]

Post by Daryl

Post by Noddy

Post by Daryl

Post by Keithr0

Post by Mighty Mouse
https://auslink.info/video/toyospy.mp4
I suppose it's the same here in Oz

It is
https://www.choice.com.au/about-us/media/media-releases/2024/feb/toyota-investigation
https://www.choice.com.au/consumers-and-data/data-collection-and-use/who-has-your-data/articles/toyota-connected-cars
Note the phrase " Things like the car's Bluetooth and speaker
systems may not work when the Connected Services system is
removed.". There is no reason for that.

Not just Toyota, many new cars connect to the internet via WiFi or
Bluetooth.

Yep. My Connects via Wifi. The Sorento has it's own built in sim and
connects wherever it goes as it sees fit.

Post by Daryl
Son bought a new Ford Ranger in 2016, when he drove into his
driveway at home the car connected to his home WiFi and installed
updates etc, that was 8 yrs ago so I wouldn't be surprised if newer
models do a lot more.

Pretty much the same, although the new one adds features as they
become available.

Post by Daryl
Just about every make and model has some sort of internet
connection, the difference might be what each manufacturer chooses
to do with the data they collect.

At the end of the day who cares? We have home internet, smart
phones, yada yada yada. There is nothing people don't already know
about you, but I love the way the articles word their comments.
"Potentially" dangerous isn't the same as dangerous :)

True, most of us have a smart phone that can track where ever we go
and even sometimes listen to conversations when we think the phone
isn't active.
Numerous times I've had a conversation with someone about some topic
and next time I look at my phone an ad relating to what we were
discussing appears.

Google does that!   LOL

you just have to turn off google assistant

Post by Daryl
With phones its possible to turn off some of the tracking but not all
so the its a bit like worrying about closing the gate after the horse
has already bolted.
I don't like it as much as anyone else but is there anything any of
us can do about it?

Yes, but it requires you to be smarter in the way you operate. Hmm
Ok, don't bother, for you it'll be a waste of time.

[Mighty Mouse]

Post by Daryl

Post by Keithr0

Post by Mighty Mouse
https://auslink.info/video/toyospy.mp4
I suppose it's the same here in Oz

It is
https://www.choice.com.au/about-us/media/media-releases/2024/feb/toyota-investigation
https://www.choice.com.au/consumers-and-data/data-collection-and-use/who-has-your-data/articles/toyota-connected-cars
Note the phrase " Things like the car's Bluetooth and speaker systems
may not work when the Connected Services system is removed.". There
is no reason for that.

Not just Toyota, many new cars connect to the internet via WiFi or
Bluetooth.
Son bought a new Ford Ranger in 2016, when he drove into his driveway
at home the car connected to his home WiFi and installed updates etc,
that was 8 yrs ago so I wouldn't be surprised if newer models do a lot
more.
Just about every make and model has some sort of internet connection,
the difference might be what each manufacturer chooses to do with the
data they collect.

cars should NOT be collecting any information that's not necessary for
the proper functioning and maintenance of the vehicle, and car makers
should certainly not be selling personal info

[Noddy]

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Daryl
Just about every make and model has some sort of internet connection,
the difference might be what each manufacturer chooses to do with the
data they collect.

cars should NOT be collecting any information that's not necessary for
the proper functioning and maintenance of the vehicle, and car makers
should certainly not be selling personal info

What's the difference between your car doing it, and your mobile phone
doing exactly the same thing?

[Mighty Mouse]

Post by Noddy

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Daryl
Just about every make and model has some sort of internet
connection, the difference might be what each manufacturer chooses
to do with the data they collect.

cars should NOT be collecting any information that's not necessary
for the proper functioning and maintenance of the vehicle, and car
makers should certainly not be selling personal info

What's the difference between your car doing it, and your mobile phone
doing exactly the same thing?

but is the car collecting data it doesn't really need? and why should it
be collecting data to be sold? at least with the phone you know what is
happening and have obvious control with settings. I bet not many car
buyers know what data their car is collecting and using, or even that it
is doing that.

[Noddy]

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Noddy
What's the difference between your car doing it, and your mobile phone
doing exactly the same thing?

but is the car collecting data it doesn't really need? and why should it
be collecting data to be sold? at least with the phone you know what is
happening and have obvious control with settings. I bet not many car
buyers know what data their car is collecting and using, or even that it
is doing that.

What data is your car going to collect about you? :)

[Mighty Mouse]

Post by Noddy

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Noddy
What's the difference between your car doing it, and your mobile
phone doing exactly the same thing?

but is the car collecting data it doesn't really need? and why should
it be collecting data to be sold? at least with the phone you know
what is happening and have obvious control with settings. I bet not
many car buyers know what data their car is collecting and using, or
even that it is doing that.

What data is your car going to collect about you? :)

afaik at present without googling, just basic personal info and contacts

[Mighty Mouse]

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Noddy

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Noddy
What's the difference between your car doing it, and your mobile
phone doing exactly the same thing?

but is the car collecting data it doesn't really need? and why
should it be collecting data to be sold? at least with the phone you
know what is happening and have obvious control with settings. I bet
not many car buyers know what data their car is collecting and
using, or even that it is doing that.

What data is your car going to collect about you? :)

afaik at present without googling, just basic personal info and contacts

although.. come to think of it.. why should/would it have personal info?
the dealer needs it but the car doesn't. there's no gps so it doesn't
need my address, only phone contacts for calls.

[Noddy]

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Noddy

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Noddy
What's the difference between your car doing it, and your mobile
phone doing exactly the same thing?

but is the car collecting data it doesn't really need? and why should
it be collecting data to be sold? at least with the phone you know
what is happening and have obvious control with settings. I bet not
many car buyers know what data their car is collecting and using, or
even that it is doing that.

What data is your car going to collect about you? :)

afaik at present without googling, just basic personal info and contacts

Uh-huh. And what difference to your day to day life is that likely to
create?

[Xeno]

Post by Noddy

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Noddy

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Noddy
What's the difference between your car doing it, and your mobile
phone doing exactly the same thing?

but is the car collecting data it doesn't really need? and why
should it be collecting data to be sold? at least with the phone you
know what is happening and have obvious control with settings. I bet
not many car buyers know what data their car is collecting and
using, or even that it is doing that.

What data is your car going to collect about you? :)

afaik at present without googling, just basic personal info and contacts

Uh-huh. And what difference to your day to day life is that likely to
create?

Don't bother Darren, your mind is to small to encompass the enormity of
the potential problems.

[Daryl]

Post by Noddy

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Noddy
What's the difference between your car doing it, and your mobile
phone doing exactly the same thing?

but is the car collecting data it doesn't really need? and why should
it be collecting data to be sold? at least with the phone you know
what is happening and have obvious control with settings. I bet not
many car buyers know what data their car is collecting and using, or
even that it is doing that.

What data is your car going to collect about you? :)

People worry that its like having a black box in the car and that they
will get a fine in the mail every time they exceed the speed limit.
Whilst its technically possible for that to happen it wouldn't go down
well with the electorate so it may be political suicide to even suggest
that that sort of thing be made law.
On the other hand politicians are pretty dumb so anything is possible.

[Noddy]

Post by Daryl

Post by Noddy

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Noddy
What's the difference between your car doing it, and your mobile
phone doing exactly the same thing?

but is the car collecting data it doesn't really need? and why should
it be collecting data to be sold? at least with the phone you know
what is happening and have obvious control with settings. I bet not
many car buyers know what data their car is collecting and using, or
even that it is doing that.

What data is your car going to collect about you? :)

People worry that its like having a black box in the car and that they
will get a fine in the mail every time they exceed the speed limit.

I find the whole thing a bit ludicrous myself, in that some people react
to this stuff as if a probe is being inserted into their anus when in
reality your phone is already doing this shit every single day...

Post by Daryl
Whilst its technically possible for that to happen it wouldn't go down
well with the electorate so it may be political suicide to even suggest
that that sort of thing be made law.
On the other hand politicians are pretty dumb so anything is possible.

I think it will be a very long time before you see any car company
wanting to have their brand known as a "dobber". It would be commercial
suicide. What's more likely is they will use the data collected to see
if you've used the car in a way that is outside the reasonable expected
usage intentions, and thus be able to deny a warranty claim on that basis.

[Xeno]

Post by Noddy

Post by Daryl

Post by Noddy

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Noddy
What's the difference between your car doing it, and your mobile
phone doing exactly the same thing?

but is the car collecting data it doesn't really need? and why
should it be collecting data to be sold? at least with the phone you
know what is happening and have obvious control with settings. I bet
not many car buyers know what data their car is collecting and
using, or even that it is doing that.

What data is your car going to collect about you? :)

People worry that its like having a black box in the car and that they
will get a fine in the mail every time they exceed the speed limit.

I find the whole thing a bit ludicrous myself, in that some people react
to this stuff as if a probe is being inserted into their anus when in
reality your phone is already doing this shit every single day...

Post by Daryl
Whilst its technically possible for that to happen it wouldn't go down
well with the electorate so it may be political suicide to even
suggest that that sort of thing be made law.
On the other hand politicians are pretty dumb so anything is possible.

I think it will be a very long time before you see any car company
wanting to have their brand known as a "dobber". It would be commercial
suicide. What's more likely is they will use the data collected to see
if you've used the car in a way that is outside the reasonable expected
usage intentions, and thus be able to deny a warranty claim on that basis.

Ahem, they already do that! You car keeps a record of what you've been
doing.

[Clocky]

Post by Noddy

Post by Daryl

Post by Noddy

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Noddy
What's the difference between your car doing it, and your mobile
phone doing exactly the same thing?

but is the car collecting data it doesn't really need? and why
should it be collecting data to be sold? at least with the phone you
know what is happening and have obvious control with settings. I bet
not many car buyers know what data their car is collecting and
using, or even that it is doing that.

What data is your car going to collect about you? :)

People worry that its like having a black box in the car and that they
will get a fine in the mail every time they exceed the speed limit.

I find the whole thing a bit ludicrous myself, in that some people react
to this stuff as if a probe is being inserted into their anus when in
reality your phone is already doing this shit every single day...

Post by Daryl
Whilst its technically possible for that to happen it wouldn't go down
well with the electorate so it may be political suicide to even
suggest that that sort of thing be made law.
On the other hand politicians are pretty dumb so anything is possible.

I think it will be a very long time before you see any car company
wanting to have their brand known as a "dobber". It would be commercial
suicide. What's more likely is they will use the data collected to see
if you've used the car in a way that is outside the reasonable expected
usage intentions, and thus be able to deny a warranty claim on that basis.

That's been happening for quite some time now.

Where have you been the last two decades?

[Xeno]

Post by Daryl

Post by Noddy

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Noddy
What's the difference between your car doing it, and your mobile
phone doing exactly the same thing?

but is the car collecting data it doesn't really need? and why should
it be collecting data to be sold? at least with the phone you know
what is happening and have obvious control with settings. I bet not
many car buyers know what data their car is collecting and using, or
even that it is doing that.

What data is your car going to collect about you? :)

People worry that its like having a black box in the car and that they
will get a fine in the mail every time they exceed the speed limit.

That's coming - unless you do something about it *now*!

Post by Daryl
Whilst its technically possible for that to happen it wouldn't go down
well with the electorate so it may be political suicide to even suggest
that that sort of thing be made law.
On the other hand politicians are pretty dumb so anything is possible.

I suggest you study up on how the Chinese monitoring system was
implemented - by stealth. I'll give you a little hint, it has already
started here - and we aren't run by the CCP ... yet.

[Keithr0]

Post by Daryl

Post by Noddy

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Noddy
What's the difference between your car doing it, and your mobile
phone doing exactly the same thing?

but is the car collecting data it doesn't really need? and why should
it be collecting data to be sold? at least with the phone you know
what is happening and have obvious control with settings. I bet not
many car buyers know what data their car is collecting and using, or
even that it is doing that.

What data is your car going to collect about you? :)

People worry that its like having a black box in the car and that they
will get a fine in the mail every time they exceed the speed limit.
Whilst its technically possible for that to happen it wouldn't go down
well with the electorate so it may be political suicide to even suggest
that that sort of thing be made law.
On the other hand politicians are pretty dumb so anything is possible.

Nope, but lets say that you're in an accident that the other driver is
trying to pin on you. His lawyer could subpoena any and all information
that has been sent by your car back to the manufacturer, and in his
usual twisted lawyerly way use it to portray you as a potentially
dangerous driver.

It has happened overseas when the lawyers discovered that many cars were
fitted with "Black box" accident recorders put in by the manufacturers
to improve seat belts and air bags.

[Daryl]

Post by Keithr0

Post by Daryl

Post by Noddy

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Noddy
What's the difference between your car doing it, and your mobile
phone doing exactly the same thing?

but is the car collecting data it doesn't really need? and why
should it be collecting data to be sold? at least with the phone you
know what is happening and have obvious control with settings. I bet
not many car buyers know what data their car is collecting and
using, or even that it is doing that.

What data is your car going to collect about you? :)

People worry that its like having a black box in the car and that they
will get a fine in the mail every time they exceed the speed limit.
Whilst its technically possible for that to happen it wouldn't go down
well with the electorate so it may be political suicide to even
suggest that that sort of thing be made law.
On the other hand politicians are pretty dumb so anything is possible.

Nope, but lets say that you're in an accident that the other driver is
trying to pin on you. His lawyer could subpoena any and all information
that has been sent by your car back to the manufacturer, and in his
usual twisted lawyerly way use it to portray you as a potentially
dangerous driver.
It has happened overseas when the lawyers discovered that many cars were
fitted with "Black box" accident recorders put in by the manufacturers
to improve seat belts and air bags.

I have heard of that happening and its certainly possible that it may
happen here.
Even if a lawyer tried to obtain the data there would need to be
legislation that compelled them to hand it over, if they didn't want to
they could just say that they don't have it and it would be very
difficult to prove that they were lying.

[Keithr0]

Post by Daryl

Post by Keithr0

Post by Daryl

Post by Noddy

Post by Mighty Mouse

Post by Noddy
What's the difference between your car doing it, and your mobile
phone doing exactly the same thing?

but is the car collecting data it doesn't really need? and why
should it be collecting data to be sold? at least with the phone
you know what is happening and have obvious control with settings.
I bet not many car buyers know what data their car is collecting
and using, or even that it is doing that.

What data is your car going to collect about you? :)

People worry that its like having a black box in the car and that
they will get a fine in the mail every time they exceed the speed limit.
Whilst its technically possible for that to happen it wouldn't go
down well with the electorate so it may be political suicide to even
suggest that that sort of thing be made law.
On the other hand politicians are pretty dumb so anything is possible.

Nope, but lets say that you're in an accident that the other driver is
trying to pin on you. His lawyer could subpoena any and all
information that has been sent by your car back to the manufacturer,
and in his usual twisted lawyerly way use it to portray you as a
potentially dangerous driver.
It has happened overseas when the lawyers discovered that many cars
were fitted with "Black box" accident recorders put in by the
manufacturers to improve seat belts and air bags.

I have heard of that happening and its certainly possible that it may
happen here.
Even if a lawyer tried to obtain the data there would need to be
legislation that compelled them to hand it over, if they didn't want to
they could just say that they don't have it and it would be very
difficult to prove that they were lying.

No legislation needed

A subpoena is a document issued by the District and Supreme Court, and
also the Magistrates Court in civil proceedings, that says someone must
appear in court or give certain documents to the court at the request of
another person.22 July 2024

Requesting information for legal proceedings | Queensland ...
Queensland Courts
https://www.courts.qld.gov.au › representing-yourself

[Noddy]

Post by Keithr0

Post by Daryl
People worry that its like having a black box in the car and that they
will get a fine in the mail every time they exceed the speed limit.
Whilst its technically possible for that to happen it wouldn't go down
well with the electorate so it may be political suicide to even
suggest that that sort of thing be made law.
On the other hand politicians are pretty dumb so anything is possible.

Nope, but lets say that you're in an accident that the other driver is
trying to pin on you. His lawyer could subpoena any and all information
that has been sent by your car back to the manufacturer, and in his
usual twisted lawyerly way use it to portray you as a potentially
dangerous driver.

Can't see that happening myself. Not without video evidence. Which is
why every car should have a dash cam. In fact, most new cars have
integrated cameras, and it would be an excellent idea for them to be
incorporated into an onboard recorder much like Tesla does.

Post by Keithr0
It has happened overseas when the lawyers discovered that many cars were
fitted with "Black box" accident recorders put in by the manufacturers
to improve seat belts and air bags.

There's been talk of it happening, and that talk has been going on for
some time, but I'm not aware of any onboard "data" being used to settle
court cases. That's not to say it hasn't, but I would have thought
anything of that nature would be a notable news story in the automotive
world and I've not seen it reported anywhere.

Still, the times they are a changin'. This story has been doing the

Post by Keithr0
https://therecord.media/ford-seeks-patent-cars-surveil-speeders-report-to-police

Ford is apparently patenting a system that allows their cars to detect
and identify other speeding motorists and pass their details over to the
cops. According to the article, the system is intended only for law
enforcement vehicles, of which Ford sells a great many all over the US
every year. But the spin-off implications could be interesting.

In another part of the article it claims that Ford last year bailed out
of a patent application for a system that took control of cars who's
owners were behind on payments. In such cases lenders who were owed
money could lock owners out of their vehicles and disable them, and in
the case of self driving vehicles have the car drive itself straight to
a repo facility.

Interesting times we live in :)

[Daryl]

Post by Noddy

Post by Keithr0

Post by Daryl
People worry that its like having a black box in the car and that
they will get a fine in the mail every time they exceed the speed limit.
Whilst its technically possible for that to happen it wouldn't go
down well with the electorate so it may be political suicide to even
suggest that that sort of thing be made law.
On the other hand politicians are pretty dumb so anything is possible.

Nope, but lets say that you're in an accident that the other driver is
trying to pin on you. His lawyer could subpoena any and all
information that has been sent by your car back to the manufacturer,
and in his usual twisted lawyerly way use it to portray you as a
potentially dangerous driver.

Can't see that happening myself. Not without video evidence. Which is
why every car should have a dash cam. In fact, most new cars have
integrated cameras, and it would be an excellent idea for them to be
incorporated into an onboard recorder much like Tesla does.

Post by Keithr0
It has happened overseas when the lawyers discovered that many cars
were fitted with "Black box" accident recorders put in by the
manufacturers to improve seat belts and air bags.

There's been talk of it happening, and that talk has been going on for
some time, but I'm not aware of any onboard "data" being used to settle
court cases. That's not to say it hasn't, but I would have thought
anything of that nature would be a notable news story in the automotive
world and I've not seen it reported anywhere.
Still, the times they are a changin'. This story has been doing the

Post by Keithr0
https://therecord.media/ford-seeks-patent-cars-surveil-speeders-report-to-police

Ford is apparently patenting a system that allows their cars to detect
and identify other speeding motorists and pass their details over to the
cops. According to the article, the system is intended only for law
enforcement vehicles, of which Ford sells a great many all over the US
every year. But the spin-off implications could be interesting.
In another part of the article it claims that Ford last year bailed out
of a patent application for a system that took control of cars who's
owners were behind on payments. In such cases lenders who were owed
money could lock owners out of their vehicles and disable them, and in
the case of self driving vehicles have the car drive itself straight to
a repo facility.
Interesting times we live in :)

Interesting is one way of describing it, what I find disturbing is that
Govt's and big corporations are taking away people's choices, to a
certain extent its been that way for a long time but it seems to be
getting worse.
Big brother is here to stay and people feel powerless to stop it.

[Xeno]

Post by Daryl

Post by Noddy

Post by Keithr0

Post by Daryl
People worry that its like having a black box in the car and that
they will get a fine in the mail every time they exceed the speed limit.
Whilst its technically possible for that to happen it wouldn't go
down well with the electorate so it may be political suicide to even
suggest that that sort of thing be made law.
On the other hand politicians are pretty dumb so anything is possible.

Nope, but lets say that you're in an accident that the other driver
is trying to pin on you. His lawyer could subpoena any and all
information that has been sent by your car back to the manufacturer,
and in his usual twisted lawyerly way use it to portray you as a
potentially dangerous driver.

Can't see that happening myself. Not without video evidence. Which is
why every car should have a dash cam. In fact, most new cars have
integrated cameras, and it would be an excellent idea for them to be
incorporated into an onboard recorder much like Tesla does.

Post by Keithr0
It has happened overseas when the lawyers discovered that many cars
were fitted with "Black box" accident recorders put in by the
manufacturers to improve seat belts and air bags.

There's been talk of it happening, and that talk has been going on for
some time, but I'm not aware of any onboard "data" being used to
settle court cases. That's not to say it hasn't, but I would have
thought anything of that nature would be a notable news story in the
automotive world and I've not seen it reported anywhere.
Still, the times they are a changin'. This story has been doing the

Post by Keithr0
https://therecord.media/ford-seeks-patent-cars-surveil-speeders-report-to-police

Ford is apparently patenting a system that allows their cars to detect
and identify other speeding motorists and pass their details over to
the cops. According to the article, the system is intended only for
law enforcement vehicles, of which Ford sells a great many all over
the US every year. But the spin-off implications could be interesting.
In another part of the article it claims that Ford last year bailed
out of a patent application for a system that took control of cars
who's owners were behind on payments. In such cases lenders who were
owed money could lock owners out of their vehicles and disable them,
and in the case of self driving vehicles have the car drive itself
straight to a repo facility.
Interesting times we live in :)

Interesting is one way of describing it, what I find disturbing is that
Govt's and big corporations are taking away people's choices, to a
certain extent its been that way for a long time but it seems to be
getting worse.
Big brother is here to stay and people feel powerless to stop it.

Well, you're accepting it. That's all it takes.

[Keithr0]

Post by Noddy

Post by Keithr0

Post by Daryl
People worry that its like having a black box in the car and that
they will get a fine in the mail every time they exceed the speed limit.
Whilst its technically possible for that to happen it wouldn't go
down well with the electorate so it may be political suicide to even
suggest that that sort of thing be made law.
On the other hand politicians are pretty dumb so anything is possible.

Nope, but lets say that you're in an accident that the other driver is
trying to pin on you. His lawyer could subpoena any and all
information that has been sent by your car back to the manufacturer,
and in his usual twisted lawyerly way use it to portray you as a
potentially dangerous driver.

Can't see that happening myself. Not without video evidence. Which is
why every car should have a dash cam. In fact, most new cars have
integrated cameras, and it would be an excellent idea for them to be
incorporated into an onboard recorder much like Tesla does.

Post by Keithr0
It has happened overseas when the lawyers discovered that many cars
were fitted with "Black box" accident recorders put in by the
manufacturers to improve seat belts and air bags.

There's been talk of it happening, and that talk has been going on for
some time, but I'm not aware of any onboard "data" being used to settle
court cases. That's not to say it hasn't, but I would have thought
anything of that nature would be a notable news story in the automotive
world and I've not seen it reported anywhere.
Still, the times they are a changin'. This story has been doing the

Post by Keithr0
https://therecord.media/ford-seeks-patent-cars-surveil-speeders-
report-to-police

Ford is apparently patenting a system that allows their cars to detect
and identify other speeding motorists and pass their details over to the
cops. According to the article, the system is intended only for law
enforcement vehicles, of which Ford sells a great many all over the US
every year. But the spin-off implications could be interesting.

I wouldn't have thought that it would need a new patented system for
that. Most highway patrol cars have both a radar and a numberplate
recognition camera already, all you'd need would be a link between the
two and a photo with all the details overlaid could be sent via the
existing data link to whoever sends the fines out.

Post by Noddy
In another part of the article it claims that Ford last year bailed out
of a patent application for a system that took control of cars who's
owners were behind on payments. In such cases lenders who were owed
money could lock owners out of their vehicles and disable them, and in
the case of self driving vehicles have the car drive itself straight to
a repo facility.

Reputedly, in the US, location data is being shared (or sold to) debt
collection agencies already.

Post by Noddy
Interesting times we live in :)

[Noddy]

Post by Keithr0

Post by Noddy
Ford is apparently patenting a system that allows their cars to detect
and identify other speeding motorists and pass their details over to
the cops. According to the article, the system is intended only for
law enforcement vehicles, of which Ford sells a great many all over
the US every year. But the spin-off implications could be interesting.

I wouldn't have thought that it would need a new patented system for
that. Most highway patrol cars have both a radar and a numberplate
recognition camera already, all you'd need would be a link between the
two and a photo with all the details overlaid could be sent via the
existing data link to whoever sends the fines out.

It would depend on what kind of system they're talking about. The
details on the webpage are limited, but if they're going to the trouble
of patenting something then I would imagine it would be a bit more
involved than that.

Post by Keithr0

Post by Noddy
In another part of the article it claims that Ford last year bailed
out of a patent application for a system that took control of cars
who's owners were behind on payments. In such cases lenders who were
owed money could lock owners out of their vehicles and disable them,
and in the case of self driving vehicles have the car drive itself
straight to a repo facility.

Reputedly, in the US, location data is being shared (or sold to) debt
collection agencies already.

I believe so, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if something similar is
done here. Got no problem with it myself. If it was my property I'd want
it back although the laws for repossessions are much stricter here than
they are in the US.

Interestingly, a vehicle "shut down" device was invented some years ago
with cops in both the US and here seeing it as a breakthrough in the
fight against crime and traffic offenders. I saw it demonstrated on some
TV show a long time ago now, and it was basically a small electronic
"shut off" that could be fitted to a vehicle that disabled the vehicle's
ignition or fuel system by remote control, and that remote control could
be activated from a Police cruiser. It was a simple device that could be
incorporated into every new car for a cost a few bucks, with the idea
being that in the event of an offender fleeing in a car for whatever
reason a following cruiser could disable the car with the press of a
button rendering the car dead and bringing a chase to a halt and
eliminating the risk such a chase would impose on the rest of the populace.

But as far as I'm aware it never got off the ground because some argued
that disabling a car could represent a risk to those in it. I can't
think of too many that would outweigh the benefits of preventing a high
speed chase on a public road, but it never got legs. I can't help
thinking that if the idea was refloated today things may be different.

Similarly, there are satellite tracking companies that offer remote shut
down services in the case of a vehicle theft as part of their package,
and in one celebrated case some years ago a guy reported a vehicle
stolen and the company tracked it's movements in real time, but refused
to shut it down out of fear of the potential damage and/or injury doing
so might have caused. Despite the police requesting it be done at the time.

[Xeno]

Post by Daryl

Post by Keithr0

Post by Mighty Mouse
https://auslink.info/video/toyospy.mp4
I suppose it's the same here in Oz

It is
https://www.choice.com.au/about-us/media/media-releases/2024/feb/toyota-investigation
https://www.choice.com.au/consumers-and-data/data-collection-and-use/who-has-your-data/articles/toyota-connected-cars
Note the phrase " Things like the car's Bluetooth and speaker systems
may not work when the Connected Services system is removed.". There is
no reason for that.

Not just Toyota, many new cars connect to the internet via WiFi or
Bluetooth.
Son bought a new Ford Ranger in 2016, when he drove into his driveway at
home the car connected to his home WiFi and installed updates etc, that

The car didn't just simply connect to his home internet. Your son would
have had to initiate and *permit* the connection, at least at the
initial connection. Select network, supply password, doncha know?

Post by Daryl
was 8 yrs ago so I wouldn't be surprised if newer models do a lot more.

I think you, of all people, would be surprised.

Post by Daryl
Just about every make and model has some sort of internet connection,
the difference might be what each manufacturer chooses to do with the
data they collect.

[Mighty Mouse]

Post by Xeno

Post by Daryl

Post by Keithr0

Post by Mighty Mouse
https://auslink.info/video/toyospy.mp4
I suppose it's the same here in Oz

It is
https://www.choice.com.au/about-us/media/media-releases/2024/feb/toyota-investigation
https://www.choice.com.au/consumers-and-data/data-collection-and-use/who-has-your-data/articles/toyota-connected-cars
Note the phrase " Things like the car's Bluetooth and speaker
systems may not work when the Connected Services system is
removed.". There is no reason for that.

Not just Toyota, many new cars connect to the internet via WiFi or
Bluetooth.
Son bought a new Ford Ranger in 2016, when he drove into his driveway
at home the car connected to his home WiFi and installed updates etc,
that

The car didn't just simply connect to his home internet. Your son
would have had to initiate and *permit* the connection, at least at
the initial connection. Select network, supply password, doncha know?

Post by Daryl
was 8 yrs ago so I wouldn't be surprised if newer models do a lot more.

I think you, of all people, would be surprised.

Post by Daryl
Just about every make and model has some sort of internet connection,
the difference might be what each manufacturer chooses to do with the
data they collect.

yep. even with bluetooth he would have to pair